Transcript: Politics & A Pint - The Election Debate - Consume This podcast

Jon Duffy: Hello, welcome to Consume This. This is a pre election panel debate. We recorded this live in front of an audience at The Grand on Courtney Place in Wellington. I'm about to drop you straight into the action, but first my co host Sophie has something she needs to say about her work.

Sophie Stewart: Yes, hello. Just a quick disclaimer before we get into the podcast, in my normal 9 to 5 I am a public servant and also I am married to a banker, so all the views expressed in this podcast and in all other podcasts that I happen to be in, are my own and do not represent the views of the New Zealand Public Service or any government department.

Kia ora koutou, nau mai, haere mai, uh, to this live recording of Consume This, and this is my other co host, John Duffy. Hi everyone.So, I'll give you a quick rundown of how we're going to run this this evening. We will have opening speeches, they will have 90 seconds to give us their top consumer issues. We will then head into the light topic of the cost of living. Hands up if you think you pay too much for groceries. Yeah, thought so.

Great. Oh, you don't think you pay enough? Great, alright. How many pack and saves do you own, sir? We will then head into our second topic of the evening, the forest fire that is the environment. We will then do a quick fire round. The politicians will just have to be, you know, snappy in the answers. And then we will head into transport and then closing speeches just in case they've missed anything out.

Uh, I think that's everything,

Jon Duffy: John. Cool. Thank you, Soph. Uh, tēnā koutou katoa. Um, I'm John Duffy. Um, thank you so much for coming along tonight and for listening. So, it's my job to introduce our panellists for tonight, and I thought I'd just start with a bit of a point of clarification on how the panel has been made up.

Obviously, there are four people on stage, but this is a good looking and well educated audience, and you will note that there are more parties in our political system than are represented here. We've compiled this panel from parties that have members in the House. We did approach Te Pati Maori to participate, but they were, they were unable to pull that together for tonight.

Uh, let me introduce you to tonight's panel before I invite each panelist up to give us their, um, their 90 seconds. Now, you can do that, panelists, from the seated position if, if you prefer, or you can stand up if you'd like to appear more dominant. Um, so firstly, can I introduce Damien Smith? Damien's a list, list MP for the ACT Party.

Uh, he is, uh, Commerce and Consumer Affairs spokesman for ACT. And a quick question, who can tell me what the C in ACT stands for? Anyone? Consumer. Very interesting. Top marks crowd. Julianne Genter is a list MP for the Green Party and their transport spokesperson. Um, representing the Labour Party is Ingrid Leary.

Now Ingrid, uh, we're really grateful for her being here tonight. She's standing in for Dr Duncan Webb who couldn't make it tonight. Ingrid is the MP for Tairi and she is the chair of Parliament's Finance and Expenditure Committee. And then, last but not least, Andrew Bailey for the National Party. And uh, Nationals Commerce and Consumer Affairs spokesperson, Andrew, is also a man who notices when you've shaved your beard, as I experienced today in the week, so thank you, Andrew.

Uh, with those introductions done, I'd like to invite Damien Smith to make his opening

Damian Smith: remarks. Damien. Thank you. Consumers of New Zealand, isn't this the greatest magazine that, uh, Exists in the country and you funded and you got choice It feels like we've all got a tombstone here. Does it look like that?

But it's it's close as I hope to get for a while Act is the fastest growing party in New Zealand by number of MPs and by vote and, um, we're obviously doing something right, but I really enjoy working with my colleagues, uh, in the consumer space because we do attempt to make the best laws as we can, but there have been some unfortunate, um, Deviations from that with the Consumer Credit Finance Act, which I'm sure some of you may experienced with regards to trying to get some money from a bank, as an example, and your organization was the first organization to Stop transfer fees across ATMs, um, which was down to your fine political lobbying, and it's a great service that, you know, you guys do.

We, um, we believe that the consumer has freedom of choice, free rights to, um, spend their money the way they want to. Um, minimize taxes so you can keep your money in your pocket and buy fridges and blenders and... All sorts of stuff, um, and at the same time, um, you can actually enjoy your life and be free.

So, um, I look forward to this evening and taking any questions later on. Thank you. Thank you

Jon Duffy: very much, Damien. Julianne.

Julie Anne Genter: Kia ora koutou. I'm Julianne Genter. I've been a member of parliament for the Green Party for, um, Twelve years, and I'm standing as the candidate for Rongatai in this election. And I joined the Green Party because I absolutely know that we are able to work together to create a better future, protect our planet, and to look after each other, and we need some serious changes in central government policy to enable people, families, communities to respond to the multiple crises we're facing.

You all will have seen. The news about the record temperatures being broken in the Northern Hemisphere, the out of control fires in many different countries. Um, we were hit here in Aotearoa with, uh, horrendous flooding events and Cyclone Gabriel. And all of that has a real impact on people's lives. And our ability to thrive in the future is at threat if we don't take action working together to combat the climate crisis.

At the same time, the cost of living crisis. is hitting people. We have a number of small corporates making record profits, including fossil fuel companies. In New Zealand, the banks have raked in seven billion dollars each year in the last two years in profit. The supermarkets were making excess profit of one million dollars a day.

The system is out of balance and we need to put it back into balance. Protecting consumers rights. This is about protecting people against big corporate power, and government has to step in to do that. And in doing that, we can have the resources we need to invest in a transition that looks after everyone.

Jon Duffy: Thank you Julie. And, uh, Ingrid Leary for

Ingrid Leary: Labor. Hello, consumers. Um, just first want to acknowledge that it has been really difficult over the last few years, um, due to COVID, due to the inflation pandemic, due to the weather events. And so what Labour is promising to continue to do is take a balanced approach.

That means, uh, targeting support to those who need it because we know there are people who do need it and there's a... whole suite of measures that we have taken, uh, around transport for single parents, free lunches in schools, prescription fees, the list goes on. But the best single thing we can do for the whole population is bring inflation down.

Currently it's at 6%, it's fallen a little bit, um, it's projected to get between 2 3% by the end of next year, um, but that won't happen if we try to support everybody. particularly people in what is called the squeeze middle. It is tough, we do have to get through it together, but we have chosen to target our support to those at the lower end that really need it.

We're also, uh, trying to grow the economy, um, and if we look at our debt spend, it is actually relatively low compared to, in fact, very low compared to other OECD countries. So, um, I'd say we're taking a responsible but compassionate approach to the cost of living. We know we can get through it together. We've done that with COVID. We've got steady leadership. And what we can't afford right now is to ignore climate change or to give tax cuts to the rich, uh, which will benefit. Privilege people more than our, uh, our working class and those who don't earn. Thank you.

Jon Duffy: Thank you Ingrid. And Andrew Bailey for National.

Andrew Bayly: Hey, well, thank you everyone. Lovely to be with you here tonight. Um, this is the first of all our debates, so very special to be with you tonight. Um, and let the debate begin. Hey, uh, first of all, um, it is very important to have a, a strong economy. Uh, we want people to have jobs, good paying jobs, and to be able to get ahead so they can buy a house, can look after their families, have children going to school, and all the good things that every family, and it doesn't matter what demographic you come from, that is the essential of life, and that's what National is about.

Uh, we have certainly had a cost of living crisis. And it continues, and one of the biggest focus we will have was how we bring down that inflation over time. But secondly, how we grow the economy, because we haven't been talking about that enough over the last few years. When it comes to consumer affairs, we want people to, um, to be able to buy the right products, at the right time, and the right price.

And I suppose there's a little add to that, which you don't normally hear, which is actually to make sure you get the product that you wanted to buy. Uh, not something else. And so getting the right, uh, regulatory system in place is really important. We've got a consumer affairs and fair trading side, but also the role of the Commerce Commission.

So I think, hopefully we might get into the debate around how we structure that, but it's very important that we do have the right protections for consumers, but consumers need a choice as well. And it's very important that we get that balance right. And so, looking forward to the debate. Thank you.

Jon Duffy: Thank you.

Awesome. Alright, well, Sophie is going to take us through, um, the cherry first topic, which is the cost of living, but just briefly before we do, what we've done for each of these, uh, three main topics that we're talking about tonight is pull data from our quarterly sentiment tracker surveying. So you'll hear most Sophie and I talk about sentiment tracker a lot.

Basically, it's a national representative survey that goes out to just over a thousand people every three months and asks them what's on their mind. So, what we're basing the questions for each of the sections around is, is what's happening in real time, what people are really concerned about out there, uh, and what they're, what they're telling us.

So, Sophie, over to you for Cost of Living.

Sophie Stewart: Thanks, John. Yeah, so Cost of Living, everyone. Um, so, Uh, in our sentiment tracker, cost of living concerns have steadily increased over the last two years. It was 33% in June 2021 and it rose to 60% in April 2023. So, politicians, this is our concern. If people are now using buy now pay later, or personal debt to pay for the essentials.

What is your plan to address this? Damien.

Damian Smith: Well, it's, it's not a fair deal at all. Um, people have been driven to this situation by a government that's spending and inflating the economy and a reserve bank that's made the worst decision. on funding for lending in the history of its, uh, formation. And all these costs are feeding through to the household, uh, where you've got to actually find extra money.

And it's not a shameful thing to go out to get credit sources, but as I said earlier with the Consumer Credit Finance Guarantee, the banks are tightening up. people have to reach to find extra money just to cover basic costs. And until we kill inflation, which this government's created, we won't get back on track.

And this is no disrespect, but over the last three years, this has deteriorated quarter on quarter on quarter. It's, it's really frustrating as a politician not to be able to turn that around. But, you know, in the next government we hope to do that. And, you know, I don't accuse anybody of Overstretching themselves, but they have to be sensible and, you know, the cost of goods are just out of control.

And you would have experienced this when you go shopping in the supermarket. A hundred bucks gets you nothing nowadays. You know, even in here, a beer and some food gets you nowhere near what you got three, five years ago. So, we believe that all those products and services out there have a right to exist in a free market, but they have to be used sensibly.

Sophie Stewart: Thanks, Damien. Ingrid is the, um, you know, party in power at the moment, um, and inflation, as Damien said, running out of control a little bit. What's your plan to address this?

Ingrid Leary: Yeah, thanks for the question. And, um, first I'll just pick up on the inflation pandemic comment because, um, we know that all countries around the world have experienced sky high inflation.

It has been one of the, um, fallouts, if you like, from COVID. And so all countries have been grappling with how to stop the immediate inflation, but also what's called the sticky inflation that many of you would be experiencing as we all do at the groceries. So it is a real issue and bringing down inflation is what needs to happen.

And as I've said, uh, the, the, um, interventions that we've taken, uh, Inflation is projected to come down to the normal 2 3% mark by the end of next year. In the meantime, what we're trying to do is target that support, as I said earlier, so that those who are really struggling at the bottom end, um, do have the support they need.

I'd just be very wary of any promises about, of market intervention by right wing parties, because, um, the philosophical or ideological difference between us is that, as left leaning parties, we see market failure and we... Uh, appreciate the need to intervene and to have government intervene and use its levers to support fairness.

I think, um, it's fair to say that the right ideology is much more about the free market and we can argue that for ages. But, if you want, um, to bring... Inflation down and have consumers be protected. It is the left leaning parties that will do that. Thank you

Sophie Stewart: Um, Andrew, I mean, so Ingrid said that inflation is going to come down by the end of next year.

Um, So we don't have anything to be concerned about or you were shaking

Andrew Bayly: your head. Yeah, I am shaking my head. Don't hold your breath Hey, uh, look I don't, I'll just deal with Ingrid's comments there and then I'll get back to your main point. But, look, if you take an economy and you had net debt of roughly six billion and you spend roughly 60 billion in a period of two years and we've now got a debt, um, close to the 65 billion dollar net terms, uh, That is what's, uh, 75 billion, that's what has caused the inflation.

We've been, uh, and even, uh, independent commentators have been saying, look, when you've got a government that spends a lot of money, much of it in wasteful projects, and you've got a reserve bank that's also lending money and borrowing money in the market, which is what's gone on. That's why we've got such rampant inflation in New Zealand.

So that's one of the key drivers. It's not the only driver. We've then had a whole lot of regulations and additional costs put into the economy. And people have to recover the costs. That's why inflation is now embedded in the economy. And inflation will not be at 2% next year. Unfortunately, it's going to be with us for quite some time.

And the worst thing about it is you've got interest rates now that are just burning a hole in everyone's pockets. And even for our renters, Which are the most vulnerable New Zealanders. They're now paying between 150 and 170 extra a week, uh, as a result of what's going on. This is the worst, this is the social issue.

And Damien picked up on the issue before in his opening remarks. The worst thing that's happened in terms of vulnerable New Zealanders has been the CCCFA changes put in place two years ago. I've said if we get in power, we will remove and take the CCCFA regulations back to where they were in 2020 and then go in and look at rewriting them.

Because the will of Parliament when we passed that bill was to focus on high cost lenders who are lending to vulnerable New Zealanders. And what has happened now with these stupid regulations that the government put in, in fact the minister by regulation, is hurting the most vulnerable borrowers in New Zealand.

That is why they're going often thinking about buy now, pay later schemes. Right. And not only have we got an economic issue with, uh, people being not able to afford and pay for their daily groceries and their rent, but we've now got a social issue of, as a result of those policies, they're outrageous. We are gonna repeal them and we're gonna be focused on what the World of Parliament was, is about looking after vulnerable New Zealanders.

Sophie Stewart: Thanks, Andrew. I mean, so you've said that you're going to repeal the triple CFA.

Andrew Bayly: I'm going to take it back to 2020 rules and then

Sophie Stewart: start again. So, is that the answer, Julianne? We're just, you know, go back to 2020, we'll reverse time.

Julie Anne Genter: Look Well, there are many factors that have been contributing to inflation, but we can't take our eye off the ball, which is we can and must reduce inequality in New Zealand.

We had a shocking increase in inequality and child poverty as a result of multiple reforms, but particularly the 1990s National Party. Policy changes and we've never had a government since that's really had the courage to reverse that and to do that we do have to take on inequity in the tech system because there are some people who are mega rich and They're not feeling the effects of inflation the same way that the poorest New Zealanders are and it's not right.

So I think we should be focusing on addressing inequality and addressing climate change and If we do those two things, that will help with all of the factors that are driving cost of living. Um, if we have plentiful, abundant, renewable electricity and we have energy efficient, healthy homes, then people won't have to spend so much on power.

If we have a cap on how fast you can raise rents, which is what we need right now and only the Green Party is calling for this, then we won't have rents skyrocketing. Um, if we have fair tax changes, we won't have That incentive to invest in property, which is part of that housing price problem. Um, but the most important thing is people have affordable rents, that they have affordable, um, renewable electricity and healthy homes, and a guarantee that if they are paying rent, their home is healthy to live in.

Um, and then we need to address the issues around food prices. Now, some of what's driving food prices is excess supermarket profit. So we have to address that. The other part that is affecting it right now is interest rates. Interest rates are hitting food producers, and they're passing that on in higher food prices.

Interest rates are hitting landlords, and they're passing that on in higher rents. So, um, it's becoming like a self fulfilling cycle at this point. Putting up interest rates to drive down inflation is... It's hitting some people with inflation. So I think we have to look at the systemic issues. There aren't easy band aid fixes, but the Green Party has a comprehensive plan to look after our people and our climate.

Check out our manifesto because there's a lot of smart policies in here that will help people in the short term, medium term, and long term.

Sophie Stewart: Thanks. Um, you've picked up on a point there around the grocery sector and the price of food and also why those, you know, part of that's excess profits, as you say, but, um, you know, we've got some reforms underway at the moment.

The government has, you know, a grocery commissioner and, um, you know, they're looking into all of these things to, you know, look really closely. Is that going to make a difference if these

Julie Anne Genter: reforms go far enough? And look, the Green Party called for a kind of ombudsman of, um, Supermarkets like 15 years ago. I think so. It's great to finally see some movement in that area But a shorter term solution We thought was looking at an excess profits tax a reason corporate tax rate because that means more of that excess profit comes back to government, which they can then use to support people through these difficult times.

Ingrid Leary: Go Ingrid. I was just wondering if I could, um, outline, um, because it is, uh, the select committee actually that Andrew and I worked on, and we worked very closely together actually to make the grocery bill as good as it could be. So for those who are not aware of the detail, what it basically does, one of the main things is it prohibits exclusive and restrictive land lease, which some of the giant supermarkets were doing.

We know it's a duopoly, so again, when we look at market failure, it's pretty obvious a duopoly is doomed to fail. And so we're really proud that we've tackled that, but we've also put in, um, uh, we worked really closely on the business arrangements because on the face of it, it's, it seems easy to pass legislation, but actually there's real complexity and sophistication in the way that some of the wholesalers have tied up the market, and so we've really worked through the, um, the legislation to make sure that they can't kind of work around it.

There is the new grocery commissioner, as Julianne mentioned. Um, and, um, also unit pricing is in supermarkets, so you can actually compare apples with apples. Pardon the pun, rather than apples and pears. Um, and finally, um, we are investigating the merits of divestment to promote competition. I know there are some people who say the bill doesn't go far enough.

I think, um, time will tell, and there will be reviews of it as well. But this is a really brave step. We've taken a bold step that, um, we've all known for ages. that supermarkets have had a duopoly and it's been unfair competition and we've actually done something about it and I, I really want to acknowledge the work of the select committee too, um, because, you know, it was a really collegiate experience and I think that we've got some good legislation as a result of that.

Thanks Ingrid.

Andrew Bayly: Can I just say a little bit? Yeah, hey, yeah, you'd be surprised that some committees actually work, uh, quite well and parties do collaborate sometimes. And this select committee that, um, Ingrid's talking about was one that's tied in terms of balance of power. Um, And it was a collaborative, um, effort, uh, one other area that you're missing is that we, uh, put in place short, uh, term, quick term, or quick resolution of disputes between suppliers and the supermarket chains, because it was an issue I was particularly concerned about, because if you have long delays, then the supplier often is in a West position.

Um, we have largely supported the reforms. There's, um, we're very concerned, and I'm particularly concerned about how we've legitimized supermarkets to be able to now move further down the value chain into wholesaling. If we've got that wrong... Uh, then we've legitimised another continuation of the supermarket's power.

Um, so that's probably the biggest issue, uh, and I'm talking on behalf of our party from our perspective. Um, and we've, and the main point I've always been saying about it, it's very important the Grocery Commissioner has the requisite skills and understands the industry, uh, very well. Time will tell whether we've made the right, or the right appointments been made.

Uh, the central, so you can do these structural reforms. But the central core of the case is that we've had, uh, food prices go up by 33%. And so, uh, dealing with those cost pressures that everyone's facing, and, you know, it is financing costs that Julian talks about, but it is the labour shortages. We've had labour shortages for five and a half years.

It's just starting getting resolved now. But, and all the other rules and regulations put it onto businesses and onto employing people and all that sort of stuff, that's what's fed into inflation. That's going to be the hardest thing to turn around. And that's why inflation might be back at 2% next year.

Sophie Stewart: Thanks, Andrew. Um, I mean, the ACT Party generally doesn't like regulation, is my understanding. But, so, do you think that the, um, regulation around the grocery sector goes far enough, or it went too

Damian Smith: far? Um, Look, I'm not going to BS anyone in this room, um, since the competition bill was announced and the studies were announced, um, food prices have just skyrocketed.

No serious player will come to New Zealand, like an oldie, because the borrower's laundry here And they can't get licenses for liquor. They can't get wholesale operations up and running of scale. And so, this bill doesn't address far enough competition. It doesn't structurally change the market. It gets a guy in a white coat called a commissioner, who will fix a few prices.

But it's not... Adequate and the AG party is is not supporting that bill. What would you do instead? We need to bring new players into the market here to increase competition and we need to actually make this category by category competitors really like all the other FMCG product companies have to compete on price and have to compete on value and you get decide your choice of what you want to buy

Jon Duffy: Alright, well, how's everybody feeling?

Upbeat? Cost of living is a thing. Um, but let's move on to something a little bit more cheery and that is... The climate crisis. So, um, based on our sentiment tracker research, 36% of people don't think that New Zealand is equipped to tackle climate change versus 26% of people who do think that we are. On a similar vein, 33% of people don't think we're doing enough to address climate change versus 31% of people who do.

So I guess my question for the panel, and let's mix it up, we might start with you Ingrid. And this gets right to the nub of it, right to the, I guess the philosophical underpinnings of the parties that you, you will be choosing between, um, you know, when it comes to the election. What do you see as the role of government in our move towards becoming a sustainable society?

Ingrid Leary: Yeah, that's a really good question. Um, and I think if I look at traditional economics, what we have is a model of efficiency and Um, effectiveness and the thing that has been missing from that widget kind of approach has been resourcing and the fact that we live on a finite planet. I think there are some really good questions coming up now about what we do, um, around.

Post growth capitalism, if you like, because growth is slowing down, um, because the resources are running out. And we do need to be thinking very carefully about, uh, whether GDP, for example, is the right way to be measuring the economy. I'm a huge fan of wellbeing budgets and of the Living Standards Framework.

I think it's a much more holistic way to assess whether our economies are serving our people and our planet. And what we need to do is, uh, is, um, act with urgency, but also take people with us. And I, I do sit to the left of our party. I am, uh, um, I, I think climate change is really urgent. But I think if we are to...

To get this over the line, we need to take people with us, which means we need to be pragmatic to get to our carbon zero future. I like the initiatives that we've had recently with New Zealand Steel and with Fonterra, where government is supporting big business in particular. Some people say that's corporate charity.

I don't think so. If it's going to have a big impact on our carbon emissions, then we need to go where the impact is first. Um, I also think that climate... Uh, performance reporting needs to be in our economic indicators when I sit on the select committee. Um, I am often the one that is asking about the climate indicators of our government agencies, um, but also the private sector.

Businesses that they support, because we need to move from a situation where climate is seen as a risk measure and start looking at proactively, uh, measuring sustainability. That's what I'd like to see, and it's quite a, um, a nerdy part of performance management and of economic management, but I think if we can really shift the dial that way.

will get fundamental change, so bit of Labour policy and a few of my personal views in there as well.

Jon Duffy: Alright, well I might pick up on that point you made around NZ Steel and others, it's interesting to compare, uh, I mentioned I was at a panel yesterday and um, someone compared um, Um, Rio Tinto's work with the, with the TY Smelter, where they've made their own decisions and come to those decisions on their own to, um, shift to a more sustainable model, and the, and the New Zealand steel.

I might ask Andrew this question, I mean, do, because it does go to the philosophy of your party, do you see, do you see a role in, Sponsoring companies to make commercial decisions and subsidizing those commissions through taxpayer funds, or do you see that as a form of corporate welfare?

Andrew Bayly: Hey, well, um, There's an issue of degree, isn't it?

Like in old answers. We I'll come back to your question. I just want to lay out. First of all, no, no, I'm going to come back to your question. National took us into, um, meeting the Paris Accord, right? We signed the agreement, the original agreement. And, uh, we worked alongside, uh, the Green Party with James Shaw, uh, around some of the bills that got ETS.

Um, so, uh, at that level, um, you know, there's been a lot of alignment across all political parties about the impact of climate change, and in fact, I've been lucky enough to have been to the North Pole and the South Pole, and if you ever want to see the impacts of climate change, particularly North Pole is the place to see it, uh, it's been devastating.

But in terms of, um, the role of whether a government should be writing out a check to large corporates, uh, The question is, would that entity already do that, uh, expenditure or not? And to what extent the government might spend that money to activate that more quickly? And that's essentially what the role of the ETS is.

The ETS is meant to be a, a, um, a mechanism for corporates. Uh, to be able to assess and take into account their, uh, emissions. And as the price rises, and it's risen dramatically, uh, that will lead to different decisions. We, in those particular cases, we haven't supported that. Uh, the, um, the government writing a check.

Uh, but, because they are large corporates, the argument is that they, if we hadn't, they wouldn't have done it as quickly. But that probably gets to a more fundamental question. We want to make sure there's better indicators so that corporates do make that decision and make it in a timely way. Because, not only, we don't want to drive, you don't want to have to force companies to do this.

Actually, most of it, this is what most people forget about the argument. Have you a food producer trying to export to the UK, and we've seen it with the wine industry. Your carbon miles and the impact of, and the way you sell your product into Harrods or wherever it might be. All those questions have been asked of it, so there's a huge amount of pull in terms of driving those companies to make those decisions.

And they should be rational, um, decisions. Governments often don't make good decisions when they get involved in those types of, um,

Jon Duffy: activities. All right, thanks for that Andrew. Julianne, do you... Um, these companies would have moved as quickly without a little bit of government encouragement? Um, I

Julie Anne Genter: think, I think they were already receiving some implicit support from government under subsequent governments, National and Labor, in terms of free allocations and the ETS.

So, um, If we can swap that, you know, and offer them support in a more direct way that isn't just subsidizing and emissions intensive activity, but actually reduce the emissions here in New Zealand. That's a good thing. Look, the Green Party has been talking about climate change for longer than any other party in the New Zealand Parliament.

And we have a very clear idea of what's needed to support communities to be able to live better. And most of the changes, if not all the changes, that we need to make will improve and enrich our lives. We will have cleaner air. We will have more walkable streets where kids can walk and cycle again. We'll have warmer, drier homes that are more energy efficient.

It's just win, win, win, win, win. Um, and we'll, you know, hopefully do pull more of our fair share, do pull our weight in the global fight to keep temperatures, um, you know, below the Paris Agreement. But I just, I do have to say that, um, I'm sure that Andrew... believes everything he said and it sounds really good, but what I've seen is that the national party has campaigned against every practical action that government has taken to make it easier for people to reduce emissions, so I haven't yet seen a plan that is credible in the least and, and I also and, and, and also I You know, we have the climate minister, James Shaw, we've set up the climate commission, that system is now working, but, um, imagine how much more we could get done with more green MPs and more green ministers around the cabinet table.

Because Labour, unfortunately, the Labour government has taken a number of short term Actions that kind of set us backwards because they were worried about the, um, polls, you know, like, and worried about the short term impacts. We need that long term commitment and the actions that will support people so we can get through.

And I really think only the Green Party can bring that to government.

Jon Duffy: All right. Thank you, Julianne. Um, Damian, you got off quite lightly there. We were getting on so well. Yeah. Any thoughts on the role of government in, in, in a sustainable future?

Damian Smith: Yes, I do. Um, it's... It's interesting when you put your kettle on at night that, um, and we've had a power failure, um, in part of the region last year, was that the electricity load and the prices for electricity are just going through the roof.

The onset of renewable energy sources isn't moving fast enough to replace the load that we require. So even Antony, um, that Labour guy that came over the other day, um, the leader of the Labour Party, um, in Australia said we need to use gas. And 10% of our, um, energy load needs to be in using gas sources. And that's because... We're going to face a national security issue and a threat to our society if we don't actually have that. On the corporate welfare issue, I think the government's been suckered a bit. Um, you can't get Aussie blue scope steel companies coming and sucking money out of the treasury. They've got that funds themselves, right? And it's the same if you want to replace boilers. These people have it in their cowpecks, but they come to the government and say, Oh, this will happen faster if you give us the money. And what does the government do? It just gives them the money. And that's your money.

That's your hard working taxpayer's money. And we're all going to be paying for that. So there has to be a balance here. Even today, James Shaw came out and said, The ETS changes. It's great, it's good, because petrol prices will go up and so will, so will, um, energy costs. Well, how can that be a sustainable position?

And the last thing I'd add on this is that the Labour Party and the Green Party need to realise that they have to make us as competitive as other top five trading nations. And they're all polluting China, America, UK. We're hollowing out our industries, we're hollowing out our lifestyles. So we can compete with that in a global stage.

Let's have our own strategy for New Zealand, and let's be successful with it.

Jon Duffy: Alright, thanks Damien. Do you have a right of reply? A really quick one, 30 seconds, 30

Ingrid Leary: seconds. Yeah, just a very quick right of reply. That um, electricity prices compared to 2012 are actually relatively lower, and that's because of the alternative.

Uh, power sources that we have. I've seen that graph in a select committee, uh, recently. The other thing is that, um, when we, um, the, the public good, the public good and the public investment, which, which they get from, uh, some of these big projects. Actually helps New Zealand Inc to be able to do more trade, such as with the European Union, which has very strict, um, laws and rules when it comes to negotiation treaties around, uh, farming and so on.

So, there is a real public benefit and that's why governments should

Jon Duffy: intervene. All right. Thank you for that, Ingrid. Um, look, we do have one more question that we wanted to get through, but I can see Paul Fuge down the back of the room. His, his head is lighting up like a traffic light, uh, at the, at the thought of, um, those comments around prices.

And if you're interested in finding out more, actually, we did a podcast on this just last week, uh, which, um, which covers off a lot of these topics. So look, sentiment track is telling us that 40% of people find it difficult to assess the truthfulness. of green claims and only 12% said it's easy. This is going to have to be a quick fire round because we're running out of time.

Do we need better regulation to regulate greenwashing? Damien,

Damian Smith: you can start. Yes. No BS. Um, the product's got to do what it says it does. It's got to be environmentally friendly. It's got to be priced properly and it's not going to pollute the environment. And if, if that's the case, we can have choice and go and buy it. You've got the power to change those things, governments don't.

Julie Anne Genter: Thanks, Julian. I'm pretty sure that in order for consumers to be able to assess the veracity, there's going to have to be some rules and regulations around advertising. And I'm pretty sure the ACT Party is opposed to that sort of thing. So I just, I feel like it's a little bit incoherent there.

Waste reduction and circular economy outline a whole lot of our plan to ensure that people can't get away with greenwashing, and I think people really like those policies, but I will let you read it yourself in our manifesto, Waste Reduction and Circular Economy, and we've got a whole lot of other policies in the manifesto.

Jon Duffy: Dab, dab, dab, green. Is that

Julie Anne Genter: right? Greens. org. nz. Oh yeah, yeah.

Jon Duffy: Appreciate, appreciate you being brief. Ingrid, your thoughts on whether we need further regulation to, to help us, help protect us as consumers against

Ingrid Leary: greenwashing. Yeah, I think in an era of misinformation, the antidote across the board, not just for greenwashing, but for everything to do with consumers, um, politics and so on, is transparency.

We do need more information, that's why this government is looking at, uh, Uh, the banking sector, looking at climate change, uh, looking at many sectors to provide more regulation around transparency, that is going to be the proportionate way to regulate that also makes sure that prices don't skyrocket. And I see no reason why greenwashing isn't included in that.

Jon Duffy: All right, thank you for that. Andrew, to bring us home on this topic,

Andrew Bayly: you want to regulate? Yes, um, people's, uh, we should, if you're saying you're saying something and you're making that claim, you should be up for it. You should be, and if it's wrong, uh, you should be challenged on it, uh, hardened by the fact that the Commerce Commission has issued guidance and is actually, um, uh, pursuing some people about it.

So it looks like it's been addressed to some extent.

Jon Duffy: That's definitely arguable, but we'll move on.

Andrew Bayly: I said, I said some extent. The Commerce Commission have done some work on it.

Jon Duffy: They have done some work on it.

Andrew Bayly: Yep. Your question is whether it should be more, right?

Jon Duffy: It's more of a, it was more of a statement, but, um, yeah, yeah, I think it

Andrew Bayly: should be more.

But I did say, um, claims had to be, uh, verifiable.

Jon Duffy: Yep, that's true. So the existing law does, does require substantiation. Good. There you go, we agree. Conflict couch, not so conflicty couch. Alright, we're moving into the quickfire round. Are you ready to go Soph?

Sophie Stewart: I am ready to go. Alright, after you. Alright, we have five minutes, that's five minutes to get through this, and we have nine questions.

So, I'm going to need you to be brief. Keep it sharp, people. Uh, 62% of people reported seeing price inaccuracies at the supermarket. Does there need to be more oversight and increased penalties for infringements? Damien.

Julie Anne Genter: Yes. Great. Yes.

Ingrid Leary: Yes, that's why we've introduced the legislation.

Jon Duffy: Great. Nice, well done team, that was really good.

Sophie Stewart: What should ComCom be looking at after the banking inquiry?

Damian Smith: Uh, it's, it's really, I'd like to revisit the supermarket law again.

Julie Anne Genter: I'd go back to building supply,

Ingrid Leary: construction supplies. I think insurance is a big one.

Andrew Bayly: No, they are only doing half the job. If you're going to get a review of the banking sector, why do you only focus on the retail?

Why don't you focus on the business? So it's actually, the government's allowed half, half of a job to be done. Alright,

Sophie Stewart: great. Uh, should we be making manufacturers and importers responsible for the end waste of their products? Andrew?

Andrew Bayly: Yeah, there's an element of circular economy and there's an element of product stewardship.

And most companies are getting demanded from their customers anyway, but in principle, yes, but in principle, yes. Great, thank

Sophie Stewart: you. Ingrid.

Ingrid Leary: Absolutely, they should be. I've seen the devastation in Southland and Otago, and we need to clean this up.

Julie Anne Genter: That's great. Why haven't previous Labor and National Governments then implemented, um, product, mandatory product stewardship schemes?

Uh, implemented a comprehensive right to repair for consumer products, um, improved product labelling with clear standards, um, mandate wasteful action. Uh, Damien.

Damian Smith: There's a lot more we need to use modern technologies to... Um, get on top of waste and management, and it's time to loosen up the regulations to allow that to happen.

Sophie Stewart: Oh, right, that was not where I thought that was going. Um, so, therefore, landfill, but then would you support a right to repair, uh, and legislation to reduce e waste, Damien?

Damian Smith: Uh, yeah, well, we'd like an integrated plan. One that, uh, takes every single product and treats it for its merits.

Julie Anne Genter: Okay. Yes, right to repair is in our, in here. We will do it.

Ingrid Leary: Fabulous. Um, yes, and also my personal view is that products should be able to be, um, repaired and made in a way that they can be repaired, which is not always the case.

Andrew Bayly: Yes, and that's the answer, what Andrew's saying. Great, alright,

Sophie Stewart: we've got three minutes. Would, yep, off you

Jon Duffy: go John. Right, would you support legislation to protect children from exposure to all forms of unhealthy food marketing in the places they learn, live and play? Andrew.

Andrew Bayly: Alright. Of course there shouldn't be exploitation of children. Okay, thank you.

Ingrid Leary: It's a very fuzzy way that you framed it. I think regulation is important, but it needs to be proportionate. Okay

Julie Anne Genter: Yes, yes, and National got rid of healthy food for school for and for kids in schools That was a Green Party initiative under the last government and they got rid of it.

No, we didn't,

Andrew Bayly: no we didn't. Damien, you're up. By the way, we started that program. You did not.

Damian Smith: Go for it Damien. Yeah, well, you know, you've heard a lot of stories about KFC and rooftops at the moment Um, but, um, our kids are getting unhealthy, there's no doubt about it, and I think sugar's a big issue, and we need to address that, as well as fast food.

Alright,

Jon Duffy: thank you. How? Quickfire. Uh, are the current FDAPs a sufficient deterrent to business? Julianne. Um,

Julie Anne Genter: no. Ingrid.

Ingrid Leary: Maybe, yeah, maybe, and it depends on which FTAs, and, and, um,

Jon Duffy: Oh, sorry, I meant the Fair Trading Act,

Ingrid Leary: not, not, not free trade agreements. Oh, sorry, yeah, I was talking about free trade agreements, which is... Complicated. Um, maybe. Andrew Bayly: Uh, the, uh, penalties were reviewed in 21. Uh, they'll obviously need to be reviewed in time.

But to do that, it'll need everyone to be involved in that process. But some may be light, some may be, I know you've got a strong view they should be increased.

Damian Smith: Damien? Yeah, just I think a cross party approach, that one would be good.

Jon Duffy: And lastly, currently EQC covers flood damaged land, not homes. Currently EQC covers flood damaged land, but not homes. Should the government intervene in the market to subsidise flood damaged

Andrew Bayly: homes? No, we, we've already, uh, increased the EQC cover quite significantly to 150, 000. So that's something that we went through with, and we supported that in the House. Cool, thank you Andrew.

Jon Duffy: Ingrid?

Ingrid Leary: We have to have climate change mitigation and adaptation.

We have a fund of 3. 6 billion. Uh, flood water is the most tricky part. We need to do a comprehensive review looking at, um, household insurance, social insurance, and water. It's a big piece of work and we must tackle it. We can't put it off. Alright.

Julie Anne Genter: And I think our whole approach to climate adaptation has to take into account the fact that people are going to have their homes damaged, they're going to have to move.

Jon Duffy: Are we talking about insurance? We're talking about the climate, climate impact. Floods come from rain in the sky.

Andrew Bayly: But

Jon Duffy: no, you asked about insurance. Sorry, Julianne, you were

Julie Anne Genter: finishing. But I mean, I guess the point is we have to find a way to work together to ensure that people have good lives and in order to do that, we are going to need to use the vehicle of government and maybe more local government, empowering local government to help communities find

Jon Duffy: solutions.

Quick fire, thank you.

Damian Smith: Damien, bring us home. Yeah, we're number two in the world for insurance claims and so therefore prices are going to go up. So we need to really lobby hard why that should be the case and make sure there's no profiteering from that. Excellent.

Jon Duffy: All right. Boy, we're whistling through it.

We're up to our last topic, uh, which is transport, and we want to kind of split this into two topics. Firstly, the big picture, and then secondly, hone in on flight rights for consumers. So. Based on our sentiment tracker data, one in five people recently reported changing their transport habits to become more sustainable, which is really cool.

But unfortunately, under 50% of people trust our airlines, which is not so cool. Um, 80% of consumers support, um, of our supporters reported driving less because of fuel prices, which seems good on one hand, but actually from a cost of living perspective may not be so good. But most of them still wouldn't choose an electric vehicle.

So with that context in mind... I guess the first question we have is what are your key priorities for transport and transport infrastructure? And let's start with you Andrew.

Andrew Bayly: Um, well, first of all, first of all, um, it's multimodal. Um, so we still do need roads and we need strategic roads. One of the most protective things you can invest in is actually motorways.

Uh, rail is important and, uh, obviously for the right, um, business case and for the right areas and the right lines, it's got a very important part to play, not only in terms of moving freight, but also passengers. And then, uh, obviously there's all the other, uh, the modes and, you know, Julie and Jennifer saying how she rode a bike here, which is great, uh, walking and all those sort of things.

Um, I think that's all, you know, that. There should be an integrated approach. There's no one approach. Because for different people at different times in their lives, they've got, they want different options. So we want to make sure that we've got the arteries to be able to move freight and people quickly, but also provide for the other opportunities around what people might want to do.

Jon Duffy: Thank you very much. That is a great answer. I did not expect to come here tonight and hear a National Party MP concede that. Rail, where appropriate, is the appropriate option. I think that's, that's fantastic, and that's a step forward for New Zealand. Ingrid.

Ingrid Leary: When I said maybe on, uh, the Fair Trading Act, um, one of the things our government has done is really try to bolster ComCom so that people don't have to litigate.

Um, that is the, where the maybe comes from. As far as transport goes, we've committed to spending 71 billion over the next five years on infrastructure. We are the party of infrastructure, um, and we need to be able to get better rail and public services to get people off and out of their cars. That's why we had the, uh, Select Committee inquiry into rail.

Um, but we also need to transition, which is why we have got the, um, subsidies around. Half priced transport and free transport, um, targeting people, getting them to change their culture of car use. Also, uh, the subsidies for electric vehicles, which have seen a significant, I think it's, uh, more, more electric vehicles into New Zealand in the last, Three or four months.

And there have been over the last something like five years, I don't have the exact figures. Um, so for us it is not just going pressing a button and going out of cars and into public transport. We need to take people with us and that's why we are doing that in an urgent but phased way.

Jon Duffy: Awesome. Okay.

Thank you Ingrid. Um, Julianne, we'll come to you in a single, I just wanted to read a quote and this is from Sentiment Tracker. This is real live human of New Zealand who said this transport infrastructure. Has not been repaired. Many new roads that were promised are still waiting to be built with far too much emphasis and money going to cycle needs.

How, how will you win hearts and minds to get your policies across the line?

Julie Anne Genter: Um, look, transport's one of our biggest opportunities and that was my profession before I got into politics. And I'll be giving a TED talk in a few weeks at TEDxMt Victoria. Uh, specifically on how we ended up in this situation and how we could have much healthier, happier, better functioning cities, better functioning transport system, uh, totally nonpolitical.

You know, the background, um, and I think the big mistake that, um, people make is they think that car use is a culture, that it's a preference that has been determined without government influence, when in fact, government, central and local government decisions have shaped Our towns and cities in a way that makes it almost impossible to do anything but use a car.

And until we address that, people can't shift. They can't do something else. And most people are not going to ride an e bike or use a bike or even be able to get around on their mobility scooter or their wheelchair if they have to mix with fast moving cars and trucks. So we completely neglected to build a network of safe lanes for people who aren't using large Heavy dangerous vehicles.

Um, if we do that, then we give independence and freedom back to our children to be able to get around their own neighborhoods. And there's a benefit to everyone, even if you never use those cycle lanes. Because if parents don't have to drive their kids to school all at the same time, they can let their kids get around independently.

There's fewer cars on the road and that's less traffic. So that what I think what people mistake is they think the things that benefit me are. The only things that I use. But in fact, if we make it easier for people to walk and cycle and to use public transport, that's the single most effective way to make it easier for people to use the roads we have.

But right now, we're still not in a situation of actively pursuing that step change in active and public transport. And I know it's very emotive that reallocating the space on the public roads, but we have more than enough car parking. There's three or four empty car parks for every car park being used so we can serve a whole lot of people to park their cars in a much, in a much better way and still enable the public space on the road to enable safe movement of people on bikes, um, and efficient movement in buses.

So it's, it's like a long story. Definitely come to my TED Talk because I'll explain it all there.

Jon Duffy: You'll hear that expanded at the TED Talk. All right. Damien, ACT priorities for transport and transport infrastructure. Yeah, I Damian Smith: mean, we, we believe in consumer choice and, uh, we do think there's a national refresh needed in terms of...

Uh, infrastructure provision. Uh, kiwi reel sucked up a lot of money, but it hasn't fulfilled its potential. Um, it's has no connectivity with the ports up north, and that's why Northland's still superior. Um, we also believe that the use of congestion charging is now. On the table. We need to be looking at 30 year partnerships as governments and parties to really put together an integrated transport plan.

And, you know, we can cater for all those options if if we allow consumers still to have choices. About what they want to use.

Jon Duffy: Alright, thank you for that. Andrew, you just had a further comment you wanted to make? Is it? Okay, good, right. I'll ask the last question then. Um, at Consumer NZ, our flight rights campaign has been, it's been a really big thing for us, in, over the last couple of years.

Do you think we need stronger protections for airline customers with relation to cancellations and delays? And what would you do in this space? You can start, Andrew, and that way you can sneak out if you need to go. Hey, um, well,

Andrew Bayly: we supported the Civil Aviation Amendment Act that's just been, uh, passed, uh, which gives, um, Ministers the right to be able to impose regulations on the airlines.

to disclose more clearly the terms and conditions, uh, I think that's a good start, that's a really good start. Obviously there's a lot of, um, there seems to be a lot of airline, uh, flights that get cancelled. I've got to catch one now. That's why I've got to, I'm about to leave. But the, um, the issue is, and I think, uh, sometimes the excuse around some of that is poor, and I think this, we've given the capability to do more with it.

I think we should just see how that works for the much time being. But it is, I think it is an important, important issue.

Jon Duffy: Okay.

Ingrid Leary: Ingrid. Yes, it's an important issue. That's why we passed. the Civil Aviation Act. I have to say that the experience of catching flights and getting credits during COVID was quite different.

Um, it was difficult getting customer service, but the credit system seemed to go some way to getting some equity. And so it's interesting what airlines can do when there's a crisis. Um, I think that we will need to see how the Civil Aviation Act goes. Like a lot of this. Um, intervention into the consumer market, it's good to, to start a bit more gently and then take a more proportionate approach if necessary, rather than come in with a sledgehammer because it's always much harder to undo things and you can put people out of business.

Julie Anne Genter: have to thank Consumer Insight, I think, for your advocacy because in February 2020, well generally, I'm a member too, but, um, uh, in February 2020, I booked a really, really expensive airline flight. to go to my brother who lives in the States, his wedding in July 2020, um, and, uh, the only reason I was able to get, well, easily get a refund on that is because Consumer raised with Air New Zealand the fact that flights to the United States or involving a United States leg were We're actually, should be covered by the consumer protection, uh, that's there in the American

Jon Duffy: consumer protection.

Yes, it's, it's, yeah. You only, you only got

Julie Anne Genter: that because the Americans have passed federal law. Yes, I only got it because the Americans did it and then, um, you, uh, made it really clear so Air New Zealand could, you know, actually had to give us our money back. So, thank you. And of course, everyone should have had that protection.

I think, even if you weren't flying to the United States. So, you know, let's fix that.

Jon Duffy: Cool. Damien, any thoughts?

Damian Smith: That's good news. I didn't hear that. I didn't know that. I think there's two elements to our transportation. One is airports themselves. Um, they as facilities, they're charging more and more fees to get you up in the air and to facilitate you when you're on the ground.

And we don't have enough competition in the market. But slowly that will change because, um, United Arab Emirates, China or other airlines will come here and connect us to points around the globe. So I think there's nothing better than our travel if you're into it. Um, it just needs to be priced properly and, you know, maybe, maybe the next inquiry should be into that.

Jon Duffy: Interesting, yeah, I mean there's a pretty significant, um, percentage of ownership in New Zealand that the government holds, that could be an interesting inquiry. Alright, well I think, I think we're pretty close, aren't we Soph?

Sophie Stewart: Yeah, I think, I think we're pretty much there, and so, uh, our, uh, final little Unless, John, you're looking at me concerned. No, I'm just wondering what you're going to do. Oh, great. Uh, is each of our politicians have 60 seconds to wrap up their consumer platforms and let us know why we should vote for their party and themselves, in the case of Julianne. Um, Andrew, since you have to

Andrew Bayly: run. Hey, well first of all, thank you everyone for coming tonight.

Thank you to the panellists and for, to The Consumer New Zealand, for what you do, I think, um, very important role that we have independent people that can, or organizations that do lobby and make us politicians aware of stuff. So I just want to acknowledge that and you have had some successes. So I think that's a really important role.

So, um, look, I think, uh, uh, getting, as I said at the outset, it's very important that people can get the right products and services at the right time at the right price and get the products that they want. Um, the solution is not always regulatory though, and I think, uh, Part of the question tonight, sort of always assume there's a regulatory solution.

That's not always the case. Sometimes there's other ways of achieving the same outcome, but we do want to make sure that people get what they want and need and have paid for. And so we are committed to that, um, and the role of the, uh, the Commerce Commission is a very important part of that. Um, how we structure that and how we have, uh, the right sort of framework in place to make sure New Zealanders are protected is something we'll be keenly looking at if we were to win their government.

Sophie Stewart: Great, thank you. So, right product, right time, regulation and moderation.

Ingrid Leary: Ingrid. Yeah, thank you very much. Um, just to give you an idea of the impact that you can have on people's lives, shout out to my 86 year old father who doesn't make a single purchase without doing extensive research into back copies and current copies of Consumer Magazine and gets himself quite tied in knots because there's a lot of information in there.

So, You do play a really important role with your advocacy, as Andrew has said. Um, from our perspective, I think, um, we do see the need for regulation and while incentivisation helps, we're in an era of big business and so the David and Goliath, um, situation is is more exacerbated than it was 10 years ago.

That's why we need, that's why we're looking at ComCom as a way of, and commissioners, grocery commissioners, um, more transparency in the consumer sector so that people have more freedom of choice. Uh, when there's more transparency then, then there often doesn't need to be price quality regulation, which is an extra layer of regulation.

The final point I'd make is that, um, we do see climate change and inequality and transitioning as really important. Thank you. But we are practical and we need to take people with us. It would be great to go to the land of the greens and do everything with the press of a button tomorrow, but we will lose, um, New Zealand with us.

We need to take people and have a fair transition and that's what this government is doing, treating climate change with urgency and, um, and having a proportionate approach.

Jon Duffy: Thank you.

Andrew Bayly: Julian.

Julie Anne Genter: Um, I disagree. I think that the only way we can bring people with us is just show them the benefits and unless we take some pretty substantial action to fix inequity in the tech system, inequality and insecurity out there, um, for people who are really struggling, we're not going to be able to make the transition that we need to make.

And we do need to work together, um, and um, All of the policies that are in here, I assure you, are evidence based and very practical. As we have demonstrated, the Greens have been on the fringe of government for two terms, and we've been able to achieve a whole lot, but that, you know, there's so much more that needs to be done, and there has never been a better time than now to vote Green, to vote your values, to get representation that is going to fight for people and the planet, because that is the thing that is most important to all of us.

Damian Smith: Um, our fight is to help you as consumers and taxpayers to, um, have a great life in New Zealand. It's a superb country, and I've been very lucky it's adopted me over the last 25 years. And I made it to Parliament to, to change a couple of things. Reduce the size of government. Allow you to be in control of your lives and to get government and regulation as much out of your life as possible.

There is a need for it, but it has to be sensible and we believe that this magazine and the organization has got values that I hope are still here in 20 years time and it's, was it 1959 you started this? Yeah, you've got to be congratulated. I don't think there's many organizations that have So I wish you all the best and we look forward to the election.

Jon Duffy: Excellent. Thank you. All

Sophie Stewart: right. All right. Can I get one more round of applause for all of our MPs?

Julie Anne Genter: And

Sophie Stewart: that's it. Thanks for joining us. You can find more of our pre election coverage on the Consumer NZ website and also in the upcoming magazine. Thanks to all of the MPs and their teams for joining us. As well as our live audience for bringing the vibe. And meeting the minimum bar spender, that was very important.

Yep. I really didn't want to get stuck with that pill. I hope you got something out of this. And I'll see you in the next episode. This episode was hosted by John Duffy and myself, Sophie Stewart. And was produced by Tom Rae Smith. Mā te wa.